Warning - I’ve had a bunch of different ideas for articles since my last post and I’m going to do a brain dump in this one and try to make something coherent out of my thoughts.
The Questions
So today I asked a question of the people that follow me on Twitter Do you consider the crafts you sell a hobby or a business? The result - about half and half. So let me back up and tell you why I asked the question. A couple of days ago I asked my peeps on Twitter If I put together a 90 minute audio interview with a top Etsy seller would you pay $9 for it? Most of the people responded no, I was surprised actually. I couldn’t figure out why people wouldn’t be interested.
Business or Hobby?
I got responses like I can just just read the forums for free or That’s too much money for an interview. I’m sure every one of the respondents that said no had purchased tons of music for a lot more money - so why didn’t people see the value of a top craft seller sharing what they had learned about selling crafts online. Finally I realized why, I think like a businessman not a hobbyist. Nothing against hobbyist it’s just a different perspective. You see what I realize is that top sellers are doing something that most craft sellers aren’t. If I got just one idea that improved my sales what would the lifetime value of that information be worth? I know it’s a lot more than $9. The other thing I think about is that the time it would take me to find this info (if I could even find it) my time is worth more than $9. To the hobbyist, selling is a way to pay for more supplies and clear shelves for more creations it’s not about being in business. Loma Prieta Pottery summed up how I think about art It’s a hobby that I run like a business - more income than expenses, pay attention to marketing & sales, preserve the creative and fun aspects. BTW I am going to do artist interviews anyway 
Who Died and Made Me God?
I’m sure there are some of you that are thinking what an arrogant (insert the expletive of your choice). That’s OK, it’s just a different perspective. Story number two. About a month after I launched my blog and Twitter account I got a message from someone who asked me what my qualifications were to give artists advice. I should have just ignored it but I said I had a degree in photography, I’d been selling my art at craft shows, craft malls, eBay and my own site for the last 29 years and I’ve created an internet business that allowed my wife to retire. I got a response back that my blog wasn’t very professional looking and I didn’t even have my credentials on the site. I responded that I hadn’t added an ‘about me’ page because I had been focusing on good content instead but needed to add that. She then posted a message to the few people that follow her to watch out for me and not take any advice from me since I didn’t have the credentials to be a coach. What the (also insert the expletive of your choice here). So here’s the lesson folks - the only people that have the right to judge whether anyone’s advice is valid is you and me. You see many of you have way more knowledge than most artists, you should be teaching, you don’t need a certification to help others. Here’s another question to ponder - who certified the certifiers to certify? So why aren’t you teaching? If you want real inspiration for why you should be leading read Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us - it get’s my highest recommendation. And if the good karma aspect of teaching isn’t enough to motivate you how about the fact that there are a lot of people that are looking to learn a new skill to make some extra money. The information you have in your head is worth gold to them and they’re willing to pay you for it.
End of Rant
OK that’s it, I’m tired and it’s late so I’ll end there. Go out and teach someone what you know.
Update
I thought I elaborate a bit more on the interview. I’ve been listening to audio interviews for a long time so I think my perception is different than I believe most of you are interpreting. I’m not talking about a Barbara Walters type interview where I get people to cry and plug there next movie. It’s now obvious that the wording I should use is audio training. It would be me and another artist talking about the lessons we have both learned about about running online art businesses. It would be tricks tips, techniques that just about anyone selling online could benefit from. When it’s available I’d offer a ten minute or so preview and the audio would also come with a complete transcript. All of my products come with a 100% complete refund for any reason and my audios would be no exception. That being said I don’t pretend to believe that everyone will want or need this. Heck if I asked my peeps on Twitter whether they’d spend $9 on an Etsy tips guide most would say no, yet every day several people do want it and do buy it. Lesson here is just because you don’t get unanimous sport for a project doesn’t mean it won’t succeed.
Also several people said they doubted this artist did exactly what they did so they wouldn’t be interested. I’d ask you to reconsider this thinking, I have learned so much from people that don’t do anything similar to what i do. Just because the product they offer isn’t the same doesn’t mean that the mechanics to make a sale aren’t all the same. I hope that clarifies some things. Also this isn’t just about me hawking my next product, it’s really about investing in your education regardless as to whether it’s from me or anywhere else.
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Great blog! I appreciate your efforts in trying to help those of us who are small business owners. I’m surprised at some of the reactions you got. My jewelry business is for hobby you might say since I do work full-time outside of the home. But its a hobby that pays for itself and allows me to pay for additional learning on the hobby and an occassional new tool or gadget, etc.!
Thanks and keep up the great blog and giving the advice!!!
I love this post - and the honesty…as a big believer of Karma…I’m pretty sure the individual who is now telling people to “watch out” for you…is getting hers
$9.00 for a single interview is too much unless you are also synthesizing and distributing something in addition to it to take with you. I regularly pay for materials related to my business ‘education’.
Perhaps the best move would be to establish that your interviews would be worth that by offering snippets or shorter versions for free as samplers. You are ‘preaching’ to DIYers after all who would be, perhaps far more than the average office guy or businessman, likely to find it on their own first.
My art/craft is a part time business - it never was a hobby in terms of approach or earnings - but my full-time gig is also a self-employed one and I can honestly say my artsy customers DO have a different approach to their business service choices than my (insert most other businesses) customers.
Thanks Coach, for all that you give us! To those who might think you’re not qualified…like you said, it’s up to each person to decide that for themselves. I take some of your advice, try it, and see if it works for me. Not everything will work for everyone, or every shop, or every item. But I’ll decide if it’s worthy advice or not. As far as business or hobby, I have a hobby that I would like to turn into a business someday and quit my FT job. Thanks again!
Hmmm. My FT job is a teacher. Therefore, I am stuck between the reality of school teaching where your credentials/certifications determine what you can teach, and what you would like to teach. For example, my major in college was biology, so that is what I teach. However, I feel as though I would do a better job teaching something about which I am passionate, like art. In the real world (goodness knows public education needs major overhauling), a good teacher is someone who can motivate his/her students to strive for better. Since that is what you do, I consider you a good teacher. Keep up the good work, and yes, I am looking to start teaching art (pastels) on my own this summer, where I don’t need any credentials except my decade of teaching experience and my passion for art.
Nice article coach! I missed your post about the $9 article. My answer would have been a resounding “yes”! Especially when I think about all the silly little things I could (and do) spend $9 or more on.
As for hobby or business…Im blessed to be able to stay at home..and to be able to do what I love. Sure Id love to see more income from it but in the meantime Ill just keep plugging along….
Excellent rant. Karma is something to be respected. I hope to one day turn my hobby into a business, so keep sharing!
I avoided classifying my hobby as a business because I didn’t want to rush in, as I am apt to do, and then lose interest. Now I’ve taken the plunge but am not yet selling online — I did sell to friends/family at Christmas and not only met, but exceeded, the goal I set for myself - go me! So I’m excited/optimistic about my fledgling business. It’s part time for now but maybe one day… sigh!
My two cents on the interview thing, I would not pay $9 for a mere ‘interview’. However if there were selling tips, tricks of the trade, things like that - which I imagine there will be - then I’d consider it. So perhaps it is just in the wording?
I was one of the people that said no on Twitter.
Thought you’d like a more-than-140-characters explanation. The reason I said no was actually two-fold, though I did mention the “getting it free” portion. First, in the old days of Etsy, top sellers were frequently helping people through mentoring and the forums. Anyone remember dyno? The information was invaluable and I learned a lot very quickly. The free advice is harder to come by these days, but it’s still available. I’ve been in business for 3 years now, and while I do more business at niche shows, I do rather well on Etsy considering the amt of time I currently have to put in it. (Even though I consider it a business, I’m still a mom first and can only commit a couple of hours a day.) Second, I am in a niche market and find that what applies to others may not apply to me. To pay $9 for one interview seems risky. What if they sell super trendy stuff to the 20-something New Yorker? I’ve probably just wasted $9 and will have to spend another $9 for the next interview..and the next…and the next…until I’m able to glean something I’ll use. Now, if you offered a subscription at a discount, I might consider that. Hearing from 3-4 Etsy sellers would seem like more of a value. Or if you had a collection of interviews and used bits of each and had themes. One week you have 6 sellers talk about photography, then marketing, then accounting, then inspiration, then the “I wish I knew this when I started,” etc. Then I could choose the areas I struggle with and get instant feedback from several sellers.
Again, I consider my business a business. But at this point in my business’ growth, a $9 interview with a single seller (unless it was one specifically from my niche) would not interest me enough to spend my money there instead of on advertising or a book or some other business-enhancing product. I *do* think you do a great job and hope you do develop this idea and perhaps offer other options (like the themes) later. It’d be a great way for you to double-dip a bit too!
I’m one of the people that said I wouldn’t purchase a $9 interview. My main reason is that it’s very unlikely that the interviewee sells anything close to what I’m selling, so what works for her is not likely to work for me. If the interview were more “crafted” specifically to my niche market, then I would probably pay up.
Otherwise, I can read targeted blogs and forums for similar information.
I do consider my art as a business, although I’m not willing to sacrifice the Muse to money. I sculpt what I want to sculpt, not what I think will make the most profit. So, I’m not exactly a “businessperson” in that way.
I think the question about your qualifications was a very valid one. I wondered the same thing actually (but was too polite to ask). It’s not that I assumed you weren’t qualified, but I was curious about why you were. For the record, I think you’ve given some very good advice! It may not all be for everyone, but… what is?
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to help. It is so much needed. Be careful in selling an interview as with art/crafts there are many niches and specialties. For example: doll makers, jewelry..Marketing efforts differ greatly for each specialty.
I see my art as a business, with enjoyable tasks. I take time to plan and manage the inventory, calculate the appropriate pricing and market carefully. It’s challenging, but a labor of love.
I agree that it’s in the wording. With so many blogs about, when ideas for posts run low, interviews can become ‘filler’ and are now something that I don’t always read when I come across them. If your interview was structured in such a way that you could call it a ‘masterclass’ ‘case study’ etc. etc then it would definitely have more appeal to me than an ‘interview’.
Interesting point about teaching too. Everyone has some expertise or knowledge that someone would pay to learn. Some of my best teachers were my best teachers because they didn’t teach me ’stuff’ - they taught me how to find out what i wanted to know, gave me a thirst for knowledge and a little push of confidence to experiment more. I hope that when I begin teaching workshops again this year that I’m reminded of that.
I am with you, I teach ,I sell, I make what sells, not necessarily want I want to make. There are many types of artists out there, and we are ALL learning everyday, not to expose yourselves to what other artists have learned through experience is just poor judgment.Those who do want to learn are those who will succeed.
Norm,
Great post. I look forward to seeing what comes about from this.
Jonathan
Norm, I appreciate the effort you put in to help other “wannabe” business owners, like me. I agree with the comments re: wording, might have gone over better if it had been marketed under something like, “sales tips, what I would have done differently, etc.” My art is currently evolving from hobby to business, therefore, I read a lot wherever I can about learning the business end of this deal. One thing I’ve learned about “experts”, though, is experience & results count more than the spoken word, so I pay attention to that. I also use my common sense to evaluate what I read, etc. as to validity, and how something can help me. So, keep on keepin’ on, opinions are like a__holes, everybody’s got one.
“you don’t need a certification to help others” BINGO
Individuals will decide if the advice you offer is valuable to them, if they find it so they’ll be back for more. Passing on helpful information you’ve gained from personal experience is always a good thing to do! Thanks for sharing!
An interesting post. I guess mine is a hobby right now that I would like to turn into a business. I’ll have to think about this.
I thought I elaborate a bit more on the interview. I’ve been listening to audio interviews for a long time so I think my perception is different than I believe most of you are interpreting. I’m not talking about a Barbara Walters type interview where I get people to cry and plug there next movie. It’s now obvious that the wording I should use is audio training. It would be me and another artist talking about the lessons we have both learned about about running online art businesses. It would be tricks tips, techniques that just about anyone selling online could benefit from. When it’s available I’d offer a ten minute or so preview and the audio would also come with a complete transcript. All of my products come with a 100% complete refund for any reason and my audios would be no exception. That being said I don’t pretend to believe that everyone will want or need this. Heck if I asked my peeps on Twitter whether they’d spend $9 on an Etsy tips guide most would say no, yet every day several people do want it and do buy it. Lesson here is just because you don’t get unanimous sport for a project doesn’t mean it won’t succeed. Also several people said they doubted this artist did exactly what they did so they wouldn’t be interested. I’d ask you to reconsider this thinking, I have learned so much from people that don’t do anything similar to what i do. Just because the product they offer isn’t the same doesn’t mean that the mechanics to make a sale aren’t all the same. I hope that clarifies some things. Also this isn’t just about me hawking my next product, it’s really about investing in your education regardless as to whether it’s from me or anywhere else.
Hi Norm. I’ve been following you on Twitter for some now because I’m interested in what you’re trying to do with the crafting community and because I’m confused by you. I don’t really care about qualifications, but I am amazed that you sell your stuff on Etsy. Nothing you make is handmade. You are not selling crafts. Yet you say things like Etsy should weed out the sellers who don’t follow the rules. It seems to me thus far that you have looked at Etsy like an eBay and decided to get in early with tips and guides etc. I don’t like it really, it feels kind of shammy to me. I appreciate the advice you’re giving out, and I like you efforts, but it seems like you are abusing Etsy under the guise of helping Etsy sellers. I’m sure people want to hear what you have to say, and I’ve enjoyed your offerings, but I wish it felt more legit to me.
I think instead of a 9 dollar interview, possibly you could start a podcast and charge a subscription fee or something. Turn these posts into something easier to digest and stop selling non-handmade items on Etsy. You are part f the problem you spoke of in your Predictions for 2009. I hope you understand that I am not trying to be critical here - just saying what I think. Thank you for the conversation here and for allowing people to express their opinions.
I’m sure it’s not the price of $9 per interview that really has people but the fact that our economy is crap right now and people are really pinching pennies. If you would have said $3.50 per interview, that would appear more reasonable. But $9 is say a gallon of milk right now. And for some it’s an ad in the local paper.
In some people’s minds, it’s a simple, single interview. An interview that if they took the time, could do themselves by asking the same person a few questions and conducting a Q&A section on their blog.
No. I am a poor audio learner. I do not do well absorbing info from spoken word without a visual backup. I learn very well visually. I find audio lessons fairly useless for this reason.
Many of your “nos” may simply have been for the same reason. Some people learn best from reading, some learn better from hearing. If they don’t do well from hearing, tehy won’t buy something audio based!
I also would not bother with something that was not specifically targeted exactly to my market. Great, you make soap! How is that helping me as a fine art seller? Or even an interview with a fine artist wouldn’t be very helpful. Great, they’re giving me info on marketing prints… I’m a sculptor. That’s such a different field that info on marketing prints is nigh worthless to me.
I’ve been doing online selling for my book business for 6 years, the art for 1. 80% of what works for books doesn’t work for sculpture. DETAILS MATTER. Generic “succeed at online selling!” books, videos, articles, whatever have been little help. The devil is in the details. Show me you’ve got specific, targetted advice for my industry, then I might buy. ’til then, I’ll keep my money for use in other ventures.
As for the person who put you down because you didn’t have “coaching” credentials. That happens alot. I’ve been online since 1999. I have seen a lot of “credentialed coaches” put down a lot of people during this time–often to the point of belittling them and like this lady, trying to blacklist others–simply because they think they are better due to all the schooling they took. Sometimes, however, as in the case of making a living as an artist, experience in the real world can qualify and quantify a person. You know?
Just because you don’t have a “certification” doesn’t mean what you have to say isn’t valuable. Living it means more to me than any degree or certification you can show me. It means you didn’t just learn about it in a classroom, you did it. You know the steps you took to get there and after all that’s what we all want to do, isn’t it? Besides, we all have things we can teach other people. I am always about learning new things and I did buy your Etsy guide and I did learn from it, and still am. Selling information is a very valid field so keep doing what you are dong. If we all help each other to be prosperous the world would be a better place, don’tcha think?
I think that it wouldn’t hurt, however, to put up your non-licensed “credentials” and link to them via your side bar, not just the quick blurb you have in the bio page.
You say you’ve been selling art for 25+ years, write some posts about what it was like when you first got started in the business. Write about how you grew as an artist and posts about how you grew as a business. Talk about how things have changed over the years. You don’t have to give away the bank so-to-speak. But wet the appetitie a little more. Sound less like a hype and more like the person/coach you are trying to be.
Because quite honestly, a lot of us are really tired of all the hyped-out promises and tired of being taken for a ride with broken promises. And a lot of us no longer fall for the “gotta have it now” sales pitches. We aren’t sold on the words that make your product sound great. We are sold on knowing you are for real and you do that by showing us your stuff. Where have you been selling your art? Where do you sell your art? What does your actual art look like? etc.
Annon you certainly have the right to disagree with me. I’ll even let you disagree with me on my blog, but please don’t imply that I am breaking Etsy rules by selling my guide there. I can assure you my competitors and Etsy would be all over me if I was breaking any rules. As a matter of fact Etsy Legal has given their blessing for me (and I’m sure my competitors) to sell my guide on Etsy.
Personally I believe selling a guide is no different then selling books, patterns, prints or supplies - all of which are not hand-made and all are allowed to be sold on Etsy. Actually I would argue that my guide is more legit as I actually wrote and created every word, where as people selling supplies create nothing. Thanks for your comment.
Alyice I like your idea of a history of the Crafty Coach. I’ll start posting the long history with all the mistakes and lessons I learned along the way.
Hi Norm.
I’m one of the ones that answered ‘no’ as well. I would gladly pay $9 for information that *I know* would be of value to me, but so much of what I have already paid for didn’t do a thing for me. I’m not paying $9 blindly to someone just because they did well. I’d rather have a ‘test drive’ if you will or a summary in the form of questions answered in the interview before I pay for the equivalent of a *blind date.*
Sure, $9 spent *wisely* with timely and *valuable* information certainly would be worth many times it’s cost; but honestly, I haven’t found that kind of information on selling from much more than a couple of books I have read on marketing for the small business.
I’m also not an audio learner. I need visual cues or ‘pictures’ if you want to get a laugh out of that.
I might pay $9 in a better economy, or should I say better ‘personal’ economy. The timing just wasn’t right for me.
H.C. O’Neill I totally disagree with your belief that “80% of what works for books doesn’t work for sculpture” that the 20% that does work for you isn’t worth anything. I know for a fact that I could learn something about business from you and I don’t sell books.
Let me just give an example for free. Everybody believes the economy sucks right? Lots of people are out of work right? So do you believe that if you updated your web site that you might increase sales? If you placed an ad on Craig’s List could you find some really talented local people to update your website for a really reasonable price? If you implemented that one idea would it be worth $9? How long would it take you to recoup that $9. What does that idea have to do with sculpting or book selling or any other art? As they say there really is nothing new, you just have to keep your eyes open to how you can use what already exist.
Hey Coach! Great post. I am very interested in what you have to say. And the video/audio would be a good thing. Different people learn in different ways. And…you’re always going to get the ‘no’ crowd.
I’d be happy to work with you on projects. I’m looking for make 2009 a year of ‘reaching out’ and (HOPEFULLY) converting my hobby into a business. It’s been a dream of mine for a long time. And…it’s time to kick it up a notch and see what happens.
I’m a lazy blogger…and that has to change too. Okay…enough of my ranting.
Share your thoughts with me.
Two questions:
What about this interview (aka podcast) that makes it more valuable to me than spending the money on something else, especially considering I don’t particularly enjoy Q&A type interviews?
Why should I take $9 which I can use for food, books, or buying something from a sponsor of a podcast that has proven it’s value to me already?
If you want to do audio interviews, or the like, find a online radio hosting service, or a podcast hosting service, and do a show. Weekly, monthly, etc. Show me that your audio offers are going to have as much potential value to me as your PDFs. (Which I am considering buying). There’s not really any point in trying to sell audio unless you’re doing a workshop type thing like http://ittybiz.com/ has , or you’ve already provided quality content for a couple of years.
Go do a podcast, then I might consider paying $9 for an exclusive interview with a very, very high end artist/seller.
Crystal Tillman
Question 1 - You probably shouldn’t, if you don’t like Q&A type interviews then you probably wouldn’t like this one. Everybody has preferred ways of learning, some like to read it, some like to listen and some like to watch. I like audios because I can put it on my mp3 player and listen while I’m commuting.
Question 2 - I believe I proven my value by providing valuable content here, on Twitter and with my Etsy Guide. If you believe that you can obtain more value from a different product or service then you should spend your money there. I hope you will buy my guide but I know for a fact that’s not for everyone either. Like I said above also I offer a 100% guarantee on all my products so if you didn’t believe it lived up to the promise you’d get your money back. That being said with over 200 Etsy guides sold I haven’t had one request for a refund.
Also people seem be to making the call as to whether the audio product has any value to them when in fact I haven’t even discussed who the artist is or the topics covered. Perhaps people take the Crafty part of CraftyCoach too literally
I appreciate what you said and also that you give extra information, apart from your guides, here on the site or Twitter.
I personaly would not buy the interview because there are plenty of them on the front page on Etsy, every two days or so one etsian, usually a successful one, is interviewed and I have learnt a lot from there. Also ever since I have signed up to Etsy newsletter I relized how much free information is on the web, tips how to be successful - on various blogs… had I knew this before I would have not felt the need to buy any Etsy guides.
give the guy a break! lol so many people out ther with wasted talents and when someone comes along and asks questions BEFORE entering into a potential let down business idea I think fair game to him!
i’m not going to offer any further opinions cos i just feel like saying :
stop criticising…the world does that already!!!
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